Re: FairTrade article in Christian Science Monitor

On Aug 21, 8:24 am, shane <shane.ol...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 21, 7:49 am, bernie <bdig...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Aug 20, 3:38 pm, Ian Smith <i...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 12:48:49 -0700 (PDT), bernie <bdig...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 20, 6:39 am, Ian Smith <i...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

No, no no - it's purely supply and demand that drives price - you
said so. Roast less and you are _guaranteed_ to get a higher
price, since I have been told that it is a fact that the
supply/demand curve determines price.

Umm. Can you quote where I said it was purely supply and
demand? Nope. I said "Facts such as the supply/demand curve which
determines price."

Yes, that's when you said it was purely supply and demand. If you
want to revise it to "...supply/demand curve that can influence price"
I will agree with you. Unfortunately, that's not the premise of the
article, and you will recall that you offered this as one of the facts
in the article.

So, now we apparently have agreement that it's not (as stated) a fact..

What is the objection to 'fair trade' labelling?

You don't hear FT or the others saying anything like "We are going
to effectivly address these fundamental root-causes of low wages
and prices with this program and here are the markers and here is
how we measure our effectiveness."

Err, yes, you do actually. Fair Trade Foundation pricing includes a
premium paid to fund improved community facilities, including (for
example) opportunities for better education so that the whole
community need not depend on a cash crop.

http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/producers/coffee/oromia_coffee_farmers_co....

"Under a quarter of Ethiopian children complete primary education. As
Tadesse Meskela points out: “The farmers cannot afford to buy [school]
uniforms for children, cannot afford to pay even a small amount of
contribution to the schools, they cannot afford to pay for food for
when they stay in school, because it is 10 to 20 kilometres from their
house.” Recognising the essential role of education in the fight
against poverty, Oromia is in the process of building four primary
schools to help farmers keep their children in school.

"Two clinics and two clean water pumps have also been built or are
under construction (2004) and farmers have used the extra income to
build or repair houses and purchase livestock.

"The Homa Co-operative in Yirgacheffe has 967 members, all Fairtrade
and organic certified. Fairtrade premiums are funding the construction
of two schools as well as a clinic built from traditional teff grass
bales. It will serve more than 2,000 people, with treatment under the
supervision of a trained health expert provided by the government."

and:

"With the extra income from the coffee sales we have built a school
and given a dividend to our members who are now able to pay school
fees for their children"
Dulecha Gobena - Chairman, Kilenso Resa Cooperative, Yirgachefe.

So that's another of your 'facts' dispatched.

they want to guarantee a base price so that a producer who should
go out of business because he can't sell his product at more than
his cost of production is kept in business. How does that help
anybody in the long run?

Buy avoiding the need for his children to work all hours to earn
enough not to starve to death, perhaps. So that those children can
attend school and learn something more than growing a cash crop.

I've not heard any of those people explain how the program will
reduce the root causes of the ills of the trade.

Well hallelujah! you just heard it.

regards, Ian SMith
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Hallelujah indeed. I'm glad to see that four years ago they built
stuff for the community. Nobody can argue that isn't a good thing. If
you are saying that the few examples dispatch the facts that there are
too many people trying to make a living in coffee I can't agree.
Surely every little bit helps. But if you are suggesting that the FT
model is appropriate to solve the problems you cite I'm disagreeing.
The model is a social model. That the poor farmers need help and are
subsidized to continue doing what they do while using some of the
money for good is not a path out of the problems. As has been pointed
out, Ian, those sorts of programs tend to increase the participation
of poor farmers because they know they can get a subsidy. How does
that help them out of the business? Unless you belive the solution is
to continue to subisidize poor farmers indefinitly which you have
already criticized (correctly) the US and others for doing. I'd agree
with you that it is a useful program if it solved the problems. It
doesn't. It just extends the time farmers stay in an overcrowed
industry. If it is shown at some point that these programs have, in
fact, allowed enough people to get out of the coffee farming and
picking to materially or measurably affect the market prices then your
postion as I understand it will have been proven. But until then these
are nice but isolated incidents that leave the aggregate industry as a
whole with the massive problems of too many laborers and too much
production. It is the mask of FT over these problems I struggle with
when I see a number of folks making a profit off these conditions. I
think that comes from seeing a number of churches profit so much from
the plight of the native Americans I lived around growing up. Yes,
there is some good done. I can drive out on the rez today and see
basically the same living conditions I saw 50 years ago and there were
people having this same sort of argument. Those conditions remain. I'd
bet the same conditons in the coffee world will exist 50 years from
now if the programs some believe are part of the answer keep it up.
The same can be said for most, if not all, of the welfare programs in
the US designed to help people out of poverty. I don't know many
people who would argue they have worked.
I will admit you did cite an example that has some compelling
points. I'm not sure it refutes my statement that the FT folks would
never, never say they have a program to address the twin problems of
over supply of labor and over production. It does not address those
two issues as I read it, rather it accurately lists the good things
the premiums have allowed. But I think the judges would award you the
points.
Bernie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the discussion Bernie and Ian.

I have felt the same/similar as Bernie does about the fair trade model
since watching the movie "Black Gold". The movie portrays the plight
of the Etheopian coffee farming co-op run by Tadesse Meskela . What
really struck me about the movie was that there was nothing else for
the people, in that region, to do but raise coffee.
I even saw the movie in a discussion, round table format. I kept
asking the question, but why do these people have nothing else to do
but grow coffee? I recall getting blank stares from the enthusiastic,
well meaning twentysomethings who organized the event. I don't recall
the exact quite, but the closing shot of the movie makes a statement
about eliminating poverty by increasing export revenue in Africa by .
1% or some such low number.
Why is there no other industry in many of these reigons besides coffee
and drug cultivation?

I am all for improving people's live, but I have to agree with
Bernie's premise. There are too many people trying to make a living
from coffee.

A side note: One other thing that I personally find distastefull about
the Fair Trade company in the USA is the amount of "free" propoganda-
like items that they hand out by the handfull and carload. For
putting on a showing of the movie the group got free Fair Trade
stickers, magnets, t-shirt decals, pamphlets, buttons, pens and a copy
of the movie to show too. They had a huge expensive booth at the SCAA
show in Mpls. If they really cares about the farmers, less money
should be spent on that sort of crap and sent to build schools and buy
food for the poor farmers. Just my opinion.

Shane

http://business.smh.com.au/business/maccas-ground-down-in-ethical-turf-war-20080820-3yvg.html

Bernie


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Relevant Pages

  • Re: FairTrade article in Christian Science Monitor
    ... supply/demand curve determines price. ... and you will recall that you offered this as one of the facts ... too many people trying to make a living in coffee I can't agree. ... of poor farmers because they know they can get a subsidy. ...
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  • Re: FairTrade article in Christian Science Monitor
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    (alt.coffee)
  • Re: FairTrade article in Christian Science Monitor
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    (alt.coffee)
  • Re: FairTrade article in Christian Science Monitor
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