Re: Do home-roasters achieve top drawer results?

Hi Paul,

comments interspersed:

"Paul Monaghan" <monaghan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ndgq32tuiom9kdgl9lpatgne9c95i6l6lr@xxxxxxxxxx
Hi Ken,

I guess I agree with you that "trained" palates can reach the same
conclusion. I know you said "experienced" palates too, but I don't
know what experienced means in that context.

I would use the terms interchangably in this context. Although I am sure
that the odd person has professional training in tasting certain things, for
example in a cooking school or a wine tasting class, even that sort of
training will be overwhelmed by one's own experience after one has been
consuming for awhile whatever it is that we are talking about.


But isn't a "trained" palate one that has been, well, trained? Meaning
taught how it should interpret the information it collects? The idea
of people adopting and reinforcing each other's beliefs doesn't seem
to me to require particularly suggestible people - just look at how
many people form their political beliefs based on virtually nothing
except the opinions of others they respect.

For example there are plenty of people out there who are certain that
we have either too few or two many troops in Iraq. But virtually none
of those people on either side even know how many are there, much less
how they are deployed, how many are in reserve, and how many should be
deployed based on prudent military strategy, and nevermind how the
total iraq deployment relates to the requirements the entire military
and worldwide contingency planning. So how did they even arrive at
their strongly held beliefs? From listening to other peoples'
opinions. Not because they're stupid, but because that's just how
people are.

I can't speak to Iraq are regards the issue of "taste." No doubt many
people have preconceived notions and process the information they hear in a
way that supports their beliefs But we're not talking politics here we are
talking about matters of personal taste.

I have (long ago) had extensive experience with wine tasting, initially
through a class and later through participating on a wine tasting panel that
met 6x a month for the year and a half I belonged to it. Since then, I've
drunk more than my share of the stuff and have come to form my own opinions,
likes and dislikes.

To take winetasting classes as an example of "training a palatte," what I
recall was not being taught which wine was better than another but rather
how to recognize wines made from certain grapes and from certain areas. The
fact that one can tell a pinot noir based wine from one made from merlot
says nothing about which you should prefer; there are good and bad examples
of each. Given the fact that there are so many different types of wine out
there, it would be astounding if you liked some better than others and even
if you detested some of them. The fact that you detest them doesn't mean
that they have to sell for next to nothing; they might still be expensive.
In the end the marketplace is the final arbiter of value; prices will be
based on both scarcity and perceived value, as they are for all goods and
services.

Lately I've been drinking mostly Single Origin Harrar Horse for espresso,
for which I've paid about $3.50/lb green. If you look at the greens
offerings out there you will see that $3.50/lb for green is closer to the
bottom end than it is to the top when it comes to green bean prices an altie
might pay. If you offered me high quality green Kona or Blue Mountain at
the same price, you could come to the (incorrect) assumption that I'd jump
at the chance to have those instead; afterall, they are "better." But the
right question is, "better for what?" I don't think either of those
varities would be all that good for straight single origin espresso shots,
although they might well make a cleaner cup of brewed coffee that many would
prefer.

I can certainly afford to pay more than $3.50/lb for green beans, but I
don't because I like this coffee for the use I put it to. This would be an
example of a trained palatte using his own experience to best advantage.
The person who originally recommended the Harrar to me generally uses it in
blends, himself, rather than straight.



I think we can agree to disagree on whether taste is objective. But
maybe the problem is in the definition of objective. If you can
respond to this it might help me understand where you're coming from:

I think taste is both Objective AND Subjective.


If taste is truly objective and some coffees are objectively better
than others, is there a "best" coffee? If not why not?

I think you can only speak of "best" in the context of "for what purpose,"
as above. I might think that Chateau Lafite is the best wine out there but
if I was having halibut for dinner that would be among my last choices for a
wine to accompany it.

In truth there is no one "best coffee," or "best wine," or "best French
dessert," for that matter. Such determinations would be entirely arbitrary.
I do think it is possible to (easily) say that certain blends are better
than others, or certain SOs make better straight shots than others, and to
say that a wine or a coffee has certain obvious flaws, that sort of stuff.
If you come to those sorts of conclusions then the question is whether or
not there are other people who belive similarly or if your opinion is yours
alone. If the latter, then it helps to try to figure out why you feel
differently. Could it be that you are sensitive to a particular type of
taste you dislike and whenever you find it whatever contains it is
deficient, in your opinion? Could it be that you lack experience and on
retasting it a week later you would feel differently?

There aren't any absolutes in this, but most people with some experience in
consuming whatever it is we are discussing will form some opinions about
what they prefer (and hopefully why they prefer it) and many people will
come to the same conclusions.


And if not, do all coffees of equal objective merit have exactly the
same taste? If not, isn't there some subjective element to the
ranking?

Of course there's a subjective element to it. You will know you have
reached a relatively high level of tasting skill when you can critique
something you don't like without panning it. By way of example, I don't
like the Cabernet Franc wines made in the Loire Valley of France, wines with
appellations such as "Chinon." I used to buy them until one day about 15
years ago I went "ugh" for the last time when I tasted one and the
revelation came to me that there is something very "vegetal" in those wines
that I detest. If you served one to me now I hope I wouldn't say, "this is
a terrible wine, absolute garbage." That would be 100% a subjective value
judgement. Rather, I'd hope I would say something like this: "it's a well
made wine with complex flavors but I can't get beyond the vegetal taste that
I get from wines made from this grape made in this area." Or somesuch. The
Objectivity would be the first clause and the subjectivity would be the rest
of the sentence!

When Jim Schulman was here recently and we did our blind taste tests, we
used 4 different coffees. One of them was a well regarded blend that both
of us found very clean but very uninteresting and unenjoyable to drink; we
found having to taste maybe 20 shots made from it in a couple of hours to be
an unenjoyable experience. But I don't think either of us would say it was
a "crappy" blend, just that it was a blend we did not like. For the record,
this blend (which I won't name) sells for quite a bit more than the Harrar.

ken



Paul



On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:08:10 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


"Paul Monaghan" <monaghan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1g1p325815u2ergm97vgd8bm3pp2dd4hg4@xxxxxxxxxx
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:36:29 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

No doubt there are individual differences in perception and of course
also
in taste. At the same time, trained or experienced palattes will come
to
the same conclusions in many cases.

Groupthink IMHO. "Experienced" palates like goose liver, most of the
rest of us don't. A group of people discussing tastes will eventually
converge on the tastes of the most personally forceful (and perhaps
idiosyncratic) member of the group. Not because that member is "too"
forceful, or even right or wrong, but just based on group dynamics. So
I don't see how these "sessions" can be extrapolated onto anyone
else's taste.

It's Just groupthink, imho.

Most people who like French cuisine like foie gras, as it is a very
typical
dish in French cooking. You may not. I'll take your portion.

The rest of your last paragraph is so silly that I can't come up with a
response to it. This would be true of people who are dolts, have no
taste,
no self-esteem, or are unable to form opinions on their own. These are
not
the sorts of people I willingly associate with. This does not describe,
at
all, the behavior of my friends, who aren't the slightest bit bashful
about
saying that they don't like something or find something or other
disgusting.

The average person is not a foodie, and not into quality coffee, wine, or
other things one consumes where fine differences can be appreciated. If
you
take someone like this, perhaps the janitor at your place of business, or
the stock boy at the auto parts store, I'd not be surprised to see them
highly suggestible as in your 2nd paragraph above. He might be better at
fixing a lawnmower than any of us here, but he's not into food, wine,
coffee, or any of this stuff. Using this sort of person as an example of
the sorts of people who ARE into food, wine, coffee, and the like, is
about
as meaningful as setting up a wine tasting panel composed of elders of the
Morman Church.

ken



.

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