Re: (OT:) I'm voting for Hillary...

"Wickeddoll®" <wickeddollnofeckingspam1958@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:fnn35d.2mg.1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"JoeSpareBedroom" ...
"Wickeddoll®" ...

"Scott in Florida"
wrote:

We attended some festivals when we lived in New England, and
since we plan
to retire there, will probably see more of them.

Natalie

Retire to COLD country?

You still have time to re think that....LOL

--
Scott in Florida

Let me tell you in a way you can understand:

Read...my...lips...NO HOT CLIMATES.

Got it?

Good.

Natalie, a shiverer, not a perspirer



I'm a firm proponent of the Pemberton-Wilkins Ice Diving law:

I refuse to dive in water that's had ice on it in the last
10,000 years.

And the Pemberton Corolary:

If water is below 72 degrees, it's had ice on it sometime in
the last 10,000 years.

So, I guess you're not a "Polar Bear" huh? Those people are
nuts.

I hope to be able to retire to Florida someday. The good part,
not the FloriDUH part.

--
Charles the Curmugeon

There's a *good* part? Where is it, and why wasn't I told?!

Natalie, Floridian "expatriate"


I thought anywhere there weren't Cubans and Dimocrats was OK. I
saw some of the good parts on my trip in 1994 to north of
Gainsville.

--
Charles the Curmugeon

OK, I'm just going to distance myself from that highly bigoted
remark...

Natalie


I don't like places where any of the Hispanic groups are trying to
'reconquista' the rest of us. I'm tired of having to press 1 to
continue in English. And Chicago never was Spanish. French, yes.
English, yes. But the Spanish only got the WEST side of the
Mississippi River in 1763. I'm also sick and tired of ethnic groups
that want to speak something other than English and don't want to
learn English, and expect me to learn their language instead HERE
in AMERICA. It's bad enough with all the tech support people that
I have to deal with to have to deal with so many Indians that speak
English in such a way that I have to have them repeat things twice
and three times. My ancestors had to learn English when they came
over. (A couple of them had to learn English when the English came
over, but that's a horse of a different color.)

--
Charles the Curmugeon

You cannot blame Hispanics for the bilingual menu thing. That's a
business decision, to reach as many customers as possible. In New
Hampshire, we had English/French menus, since many of them are
Canadian émigrés. Nobody is trying to "force" anything; businesses
just choose to make themselves more accessible. You, and many
others are under the incorrect impression that Hispanics *demanded*
bilingual media. I have never, ever seen that among their political
agenda. Ever. There are many Hispanics who speak perfectly good
English, but prefer to speak their native language. I see nothing
wrong with that (personally, I think it's a gorgeous language, and
plan to learn it someday), but I agree that anyone who emigrates to
*any* other country should learn the language, as my Polish-born
in-laws did.

Blanket statements, which you unfortunately make regularly, are
rarely accurate, Charles; it may speak for a segment of whatever
group you're commenting on, but it's not fair to lump *everyone* of
that group into any pigeonholes.

Natalie


Unforunately, I rarely get to see the ones that seem to be the
exceptions. Just the ones that give their groups a bad name.

For instance I know people that are from the Subcontinent that speak
English quite clearly and understandably, but I never ever seem to
run into one on tech support lines, which I'm on a lot.

The whole idea of communication is to be understood by the party
that's hearing you. That's part of the reason my ancestors and your
husband's ancestors learned English when they got here. The landlord
and his wife at the place I grew up in Chicago were from Germany,
they came over after the hyperinflation of 1923. But they said, We
are Americans now, we speak English. The only time I ever heard them
use German was when some of their relatives came over from Germany to
visit.

How did the others survive before we had bilingual iron maidens? It's
not like we have a huge state the size of Quebec in the middle of the
country that speaks another language dividing the East from the West,
or that we have Language Nazis just like the Canadians do. Why does
Californication have drivers tests in 27 different languages?

--
Charles the Curmugeon

As I said, I believe anyone coming to this country should learn the
language. There are all sorts of free courses available, so there
really is no excuse. I never heard of a driver's license test being
in more than two languages. That's just dumb, since our signs are in
English.


No excuse? Natalie, call your nearest primary school and spend 5
minutes on the phone with the speech therapist. He/she will explain the
science behind learning language. It doesn't include excuses. It's a
matter of brain development.

Of course I didn't mean people with speech delays, Joe - come on, you're
just being facetious. A person of average ability and IQ can learn a
new language at any age. I'm not buying what you're selling here.

Fact: Language is easily learned by kids under 8 or 10 years old. In
the adult years, it's usually a real bitch to learn a second language.
Not everyone coming to this country is under 8 or 10 years old.

I'd like to see Bill Cosby try olympic pole vaulting, but he's a bit
old for that. In the same vein, you can expect to hear foreign
languages spoken in all immigrant families until the little kids grow
up and the old folks are dead. We have lots of Puerto Ricans here. I'll
try Spanish with them, and many say "I don't speak it. My parents were
the last in my family to use it around the house." That's how it works.

You're just repeating what I said - that sometimes they prefer to speak
their native country's language, and pass that language on to their
children. I also said I think that's just fine; why should their
heritage be eliminated?

You'll have to come up with a much better reason for people not learning
a new language, than speech pathology in some.

Natalie



I guess I wasn't clear about something: All people (again **ALL
PEOPLE**) learn language much more easily below the age of 8 or 10. This
is a well known FACT about human development. It has nothing to do with
"speech delays" at all. Nothing. Kids who learn a 2nd language beginning
in high school have a much bigger challenge than kids who learned at
earlier ages, and for adults, it can be like climbing a mountain.

I never said it was easy. I just said that everyone who moves to a new
country should learn the language. They may never get it down pat (hell,
most American-born people can't do that), but I don't think they should
expect me to learn their language, in order to care for them (bilingual
nurses are in huge demand). My mother-in-law was in her late 20s when she
came to the U.S., and still has a very thick Polish accent. She pretty
much learned enough to get by, with a little to spare. My father-in-law
learned barely enough to get by, and after he had a stroke, he lost what
little English he had spoken. They, and many other immigrants at the
time, learned English without any assistance whatsoever. My point is that
if they could do that, with little or no formal education before coming
here, then *any* immigrant should learn the language of the country in
which they choose to live. I'm well aware that the English language is
the most difficult to learn (at least from what I hear), with all our
silly rules, such as "i before e except after c" - but that doesn't mean
that you should be here for decades and still need an interpreter for
everyday life. Sorry, but to me, that's bull***.

I mentioned speech pathologists because your belief in learning a new
language is a strong one, and can only be disassembled by speaking to
someone whose business it is to know these things. The human brain is far
more receptive to new languages at a younger age, which is why parents
who use baby talk with babies should be whacked upside the head with a
brick. That's when kids' brains are like sponges for language.

I'm well aware that children learn language more easily, so that's a moot
point for me.

I'm not saying that immigrants shouldn't try to learn English, but the
fact is, it's a bitch to do for the vast majority of older people. The
best way is immersion - being surrounded by the language you're trying to
learn. Immersion includes being challenged to interact. That means
conversation, not just exposure to signs, TV and menus in English. That
doesn't force you to respond. But, bi-lingual signs and menus may be the
an excellent learning tool for the very people Charles loves to hate.
We're exposed to these things at times when we need to interact, like get
off the highway or order food. Not as good a tool as speaking to someone,
but still, a useful tool.

Agreed - I personally don't have a problem with bilingual aids, I think
it's a good idea, but most people who immigrate (from Mexico, anyway) are
usually under 30 years old, many are still in their teens, since making
the journey is very dangerous and physically demanding.

I saw an interesting phenomenon a few years ago. A friend had moved here
from Puerto Rico to go to grad school when she was 21. They take English
in high school in PR, but she was still pretty rusty. She had to get up
speed quickly, or waste the full scholarship she'd won, and she did an
amazing job of it. When I met her, she spoke English with a level of
precision that was astounding. One night, at a party, she had way too
many cocktails. She ran out of snacks, and was looking for someone sober
enough to go get more. She was asking people in Spanish, though, and
after a few minutes, she got panicky because nobody could respond and she
thought it was weird. I finally managed to say "speak more slowly" in
Spanish, and figured out that due to her drunken state, she couldn't
speak English!

I understand that in parts of Europe, kids are required to learn a second
language, often English. I think that's a good idea. I think kids in
this country should be required to learn at least one foreign language
(not necessarily Spanish). Just to make us better global citizens.

I found this very interesting, and on a rare day when my ex (a speech
pathologist) wasn't pissed off at me, I asked her about it. She gave me a
textbook which described how PET scans are used to determine what parts
of the brain are lighting up during various common activities. (This was
in a section of the book about brain damage, like strokes). To make a
long story short, a second language involves more intentional effort and
more parts of the brain, compared our first language, which is almost
completely automatic. Booze, drugs and injuries can affect that part of
the brain. My friend had temporarily lost the ability to speak her 2nd
language for that reason.

:-) Interesting, but not my point.

It's not as easy as you imagine.

See above.

Natalie



At the moment, I'm reminded of a guy here in Rochester who wanted to take
Eastman Kodak to court because they wouldn't promote him to a new position:
Communicating in person and in writing with the Wall Street investment
community. They wouldn't promote him because obviously, the job required
the ability to speak English. His first language was ebonics. I don't recall
the exact details, but I think the newspaper said the judge advised the
guy's attorney to tell him "You must be kidding." The case never got past
step one.

We should fix our own problems.


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