Re: Prius - eco-friendly, my ass


"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:bkL9i.10435$ih.4529@xxxxxxxxxxx
Jeff Strickland wrote:

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:hDK9i.10418$ih.6779@xxxxxxxxxxx
Jeff Strickland wrote:

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:fZJ9i.10409$ih.2017@xxxxxxxxxxx
Jeff Strickland wrote:

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:iGJ9i.10407$ih.701@xxxxxxxxxxx
Jeff Strickland wrote:
As a group we might use more, but as individuals it would be difficult to demonstrate that we use more.

I admit that I might use more than I did, but most of us are more likely to be using far less. So, our individual consumption (demand) has gone down, there are more of "us" making demands.

In a true Supply and Demand market place, the suppliers would make more under these conditions. They appear to have gone to pains to maintain the same production levels, or less, and therefore CREATE a short supply in the face of decreased individual demand.

Just how is the market going to increase supply when the refineries are running at capacity

They are running at capacity because 1.) they have acutally cut capacity in the past 30 yesrs or so, and 2.) have not built a single new refinery -- mostly due to environmental concerns -- during the same time span.



and there are not new refineries being built, both
because of environmental concerns and financial concerns (few oil companies want to start a new refinery when the President wants to turn bushels of corn into auto fuel to reduce the need for gasoline)?


Don't blame 30+ years of holding back on a President that has been around for less than 8 years.

Actually, it has only been this president who has been pushing the ethanol from corn.

Blame environmentalists for not building stuff because such blame would be well placed. But, do not blame any particular Administration, particularly not this one or the preceeding one.
>
There is a known pattern of consolidation among the refineries, creating the loss of capacity that gives us the market place we find ourselves in today. Add the choking affect of environmentalist lobbies, and we have a market where supplies are dictated by the suppliers. When consumers do not volunteer to participate in the market place, and suppliers control the market place to the extent that they do, it makes perfect sense that crude at $60 hits the street at $3.25 or more.

Excellent. Thanks to this my ExxonMobil stock keeps going up!

That's fine. But do not pretend that the consumer has any say in the current Supply & Demand market place. There is no evidence that Supply & Demand is at work here because all consumers could refuse to visit the local gas pump tomorrow and the next day, but gas prices would remain stable on the third day.

They do have a say. the cost of the say is too much for them. For example, they could maintain their cars better, drive less aggressively, bunch up their trips, take public transportation or use their own muscles. Over the long term, they can get solar powered vehicles (obviously, using a batter to store the energy), buy more efficient vehicles and move closer to work when they outgrow their house.


You have your head buried up your ass far to far for me to explain this any clearer. Supply and Demand IS NOT the market force at play in today's pump prices.

Insults not needed. And when you insult others, you look stupid if you misspell things (think too instead of to).


Sorry, but you are saying that consumers can affect the market. I'm telling you in no uncertain terms that the market is controlled by the supply side of the equation. Consumers have no option but to pull up to the pump and get gas. Yes, they can do tiny little things as individuals that might make their trips to the pump less frequent, but as a group, consumers have no choice but to buy gas because we have to have it.

Suppliers could make more gas too and improve the supply side, but they won't. They might argue that they can't, and to a certain extent that is true. There are huge environmental hurdles that have caused no new refineries to be built in 30 years. But, the environmental issues aside, there was once 30 different refiners in California that operated something like 75 different refineries. Today, there are 6 refiners operating in the state, I'm not sure how many plants are operating, but they are all managed by 6 different firms. There is no competitive environment on the supply side, and there are no options on the demand side. This means that supply and demand are not working in the market place.





Cut it or spin it any way you want. Supply and Demand is a valid market force, but is not at play in ANY of the energy markets, as those markets affect the end consumer.

So if the price of crude went up to $100,000 per liter, then the price of gas would still be $3.50 at the pump?

Supply and demand is a major determinant of the price of crude oil as well as the price of gasoline at the pump. There are other market forces that determine the price of gas at the pump, like consumer preferences (ever notice that the price of brand name gas is usually higher than no-name gas), and competition.


Yes, supply and demand afffect crude prices, and that affects pump prices. But, today (Jun. 7) crude prices are hovering at about $60, but the street price of gasoline is nearly one dollar per gallon higher than they were the last time crude was $60.





But supply and demand plays an important role, too. To understand this, it helps to think of the supply and demand for not just gasoline, but the refining of the crude oil in determining the cost.

If I am incorrect, please cite sources to support your view.















Supply & Demand is a good market forecaster, but it demands participants be voluntary. In the current market place, consumers are compulsory participants, and as a result Supply & Demand are warped as an economic rule.

Supply and demand doesn't require that the demand be voluntary.

Crude oil prices are determined by forces outside the US (like India's and China's increased demand). In addition, another factor affecting the price of gasoline in the US is the competition between oil companies and gas stations.

But Pump Prices exceed the cost of crude.

Doh! There is the cost of refining, delivery, taxes, and profit for the oil companies.



ding ding ding ding
The cost of refining, delivery, and taxes are basically flat. These costs do not change, the cost of crude changes wildly. But, a dollar increase in crude makes about three cents increase in gas at the street.

The oil companies are reporting RECORD profits at a time when they are telling us there is no product to sell. If supplies are short, then sales should be short, and profits should also be short. But, profits are the only part of the equation that is not short. This can only mean that gas suppliers are able to manipulate the market place to affect supplies and drive the prices up.




China's demand, et al, affect crude prices, and as such pump prices should rise and fall with the cost of crude. But, pump prices are greater than crude prices ...

Yeah, because the demand for oil is high compared with the supply. That's called the law of supply and demand. There are other things in play, like the perception of the future price of gas, the future demand for gasoline, the future demand for home heating oil (which gets refined at the same refineries) and competition and people's perception of gasoline quality (which is one reason why branded gas stations pay more for gas than nonbranded gas stations - it was on NPR today).

Likewise, if it weren't for different market forces, the price of diesel and gasoline would rise and fall together, with the price diesel being some percentage of the price of gasoline before taxes and other fixed costs, like marketing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Jeff


You are mixing supply and demand at the well head and at the gas pump. Supply and demand is not the reason for high gas prices at the pump, it is the reason for high crude prices at the well head.






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