Re: OT Why investigate what we already looked at???

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 01:03:08 -0800, Johnny Hageyama wrote:

> Hachiroku wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:32:15 -0800, Johnny Hageyama wrote:
>
>> > The Chamberlain analogy applies poorly to Iraq, a militarily inferior
>> > country whose government was virtually trapped by constant patrols of
>> > British and American war planes and having a large northern region
>> > under control of an opposition group, the Kurds. But more importantly,
>> > unlike 1938 the Iraq war of 2003 was unnecessary and unjustified, and
>> > it's we who failed to learn from WWI: don't become involved in an
>> > unnecessary war, especially when any shallow victory will lead to a
>> > much bigger war a generation later.
>
>> Oh, you mean the Kurds that Hussein maimed and killed in huge numbers?
>
> And where was the U.S. when Hitler was killing only German citizens or,
> more recently, when Russia slaughtered Chechnians?
>
>> They hate our way of life and our guts.
>> >
>> > Some of their most extreme conservatives hate us because of our liberal
>> > values (I mean "liberal" in the nonpartisan, 19th century sense) and
>> > secular and materialistic lifestyle, but the primary reasons for their
>> > hate are our support of Israel and our support of the dictatorships of
>> > the oil producing nations. They do not, as some misguided people
>> > claim, hate us because we're free. If anything, they admire that about
>> > us, and even some captured Baathist insurgents expected us to create
>> > another MacArthur-like occupation. If you visit foreign countries,
>> > you'll find that the U.S. is widely admired, but currently the people
>> > there can't understand how we tolerate anybody like George W. Bush.
>>
>> So, just because we live like we do is a Just Cause to terrorize the US
>> and kill 3300 people in an attack on US soil?
>
> Don't twist my words to completely change their meaning. I said
> Middle East Muslims don't hate us simply because we're different or
> free but because we have been involved in the Middle East in ways they
> see as imperialistic (support of Israel) or oppressive (support of
> dictatorships). Notice I didn't say they were right.
>
>> Because we don't 'see' the same God is a Damn Good Reason for
>> them to declare a Jihad on the US?
>
> Actually we do worship the same God.
>
>> they do not understand us 'being nice', to them
>
>> > That is exactly why we should be nice to them, just as we were to
>> > Germany and Japan after WWII. That was the shock and awe that turned
>> > them from fascists to liberals. After all, what kind of country
>> > conquers you and then chooses not to destroy, rob, and humiliate you
>> > but instead gives you aid? Humane treatment didn't start with WWII
>> > but was ordered by George Washington for treatment of British POWs, and
>> > even back then it won some of the hearts of the British soldiers.
>>
>> You DON'T KNOW these people!!! You extend a hand to them, and they'll grab
>> it and rip your friggin heart out and show it to you while you die.
>
> Then why shouldn't we have eternal war with all Muslims until they're
> not only defeated but also exterminated from the planet? The only
> reason we obtained real and permanent peace from the former WWII Axis
> nations was because we imposed the peace differently than had ever been
> done before, and we'll have to do the same with the Muslim world.
>
>> >> Bill ("Slick Wille") Clintoon, who never met an Arab he didn't like, they were
>> >> able to attack us almost constantly throughout his administration.
>> >
>> > This isn't true, and there was a period during the mid-1990s when
>> > Israel and the Palestinian territories had one of the lowest rates of
>> > violence in the world, proof that much Arab-Muslim terrorism is due to
>> > our policy toward Israel.
>
>> Your Fuzzy Logic is flawed.
>
> It's not logic but statement of fact.
>
>> These people hate us. Period.
>
> I know that, but coexistence without violence is possible even without
> friendly relations, as those few years in the 1990s showed (when Arafat
> cracked down on his terrorists) and in reality the Palestinian people
> are dependent on Israel because nobody else has jobs available.
>
>> They have since the Crusades. You really need to learn who these people
>> are before you start defending them.
>
> You're assuming something I never said because I didn't defend the
> Muslims.
>
>> They are NOT NICE people, and when they are done with us, they will
>> turn on each other, as they already have.
>
> Which is what happened during that period when Israel was at relative
> peace with the Palestinians. The Middle East is full of fascist
> super-red states.
>
>> Or didn't you hear about the 34 children killed in a suicide bombing, or the
>> 13 year old suicide bomber that killed an American soldier. Yes, they
>> recruit their own children to kill themselves. This is the kind of enemy we
>> are up against, even more ruthless than the Japanese during WWII.
>
> That's usually the case with irregulars. My father said the Vietnamese
> NLF tortured people worse than the Viet Cong or North Vietnamese did.
>
>> Keep defending them! They'll show you no mercy for your efforts.
>
>> I'd call you a fool, but like most people, you DON'T know how they are.
>> See the movie the Terminator to get an idea. THEY WILL NOT STOP!
>
> Nobody has been tougher against terrorists than the Israelis, but if
> even Israel can't stop them, it's naive to think we can do anywhere
> nearly as well, especially when we know far, far less about our enemy
> than Israel does about theirs.
>
> So what's your solution?


<sigh> I wish I had one. You make some valid points, from your point of
view, except for the one about coexistance. If it were up to me, I'd tell
them, you stay over there and live your life the way you want, and I'll
stay here and do likewise, and LET them kill each other off. But it's not
that simple.

Our decadent lifestyle is what they despise and as long as our TV, movies
and music are exported around the world, they will continue to despise us.
Funny thing; most media is produced by liberals, and it is our media
offerings that defend the Muslims so much. The same people that would
extend a hand of friendship to them are the reason they hate us so much!

I lived with these people for a while, here in the US. The Liberals are
ok, actually, nice people. The moderates, well, guard your words and
actions. The radicals...watch your back! The first opportunity and you're
had.

The sad thing is, we are their biggest enemy, merely because of the way we
live in the US. After they are done with us, they will turn on the rest of
the world, and then themselves.

I really believe, from what I learned from these people, that ideally, the
World would be, probably, one large town or state with like-minded muslims
(the radicals, of course), and maybe China! That's about it. India may be
spared, also. But to hear them talk about Paradise, it is a town on the
Euphrates with one large village of True Believers. For real, man!!!
.

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